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bujinkanrules!
Starting Member
Australia
1 Posts |
 Posted - 05/22/2004 : 01:38:00
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Hi i have two questions
1: What frame of mind did the average ninja or samurai go into battle with? Some people say that i have talked to have said that samurai were fearless and were calm is true or not?
2 What is the ideal frame of mind to go into a fight with?
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mog roith
Frequent Member
Canada
117 Posts |
 Posted - 05/23/2004 : 14:00:27
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1. There aren't really words to describe it in English. Instead of being 'fearless' and 'calm', my understanding of the mental attitude that is fostered by most kinds of Budo is a form of 'righteousness', without the religious overtones. It's knowing that, given how you live, you do not deserve to be attacked, and therefore whatever you might do to the enemy who has attacked you has been brought upon them by themselves. There's also a great deal of self-confidence and honor bound up in it. It wasn't that the samurai were fearless, it's that they didn't acknowledge their fear as a guiding force.
2. IMHO, the best frame of mind for a fight is "I have done nothing to deserve this, and have done everything within reason to avoid it." If you can honestly say that, then you are morally (though perhaps not legally) free to unleash whatever is required to walk out of there alive and healthy.
But primarily, you should be avoiding fights. This isn't cowardice or dishonour, it's acknowledging that in the modern world, without direct attack by another, there's no reason to fight anyone.
As an example; I was in a bar about 5 years ago. As I've posted here before, I'm a pretty big guy, rugby or football player big (I could lose some weight, I'm not bragging, just setting the scene). Anyway, this guy on the dance floor starts deliberately bumping into me. I didn't even come up to his neck, and he easily outweighed me by 50 pounds, and was in much better shape than I. I was stone sober, as I was the DD, and I was just bouncing in place, that's how I'm certain HE was bumping into ME. After a couple bumps, he turns to me and says "Look buddy, stop bumping me or there's gonna be trouble." And just past him I see the gal he's trying to impress. So I stop dancing, turn to him, and say "I'm not the one moving around, and I'm really not in the mood to let you start a fight." And then, turn my back to him and ignore him.
This meant he could A> sucker punch the smaller guy (me) in the back of the head, or B> stick his tail between his legs and cut his losses. He chose B>, since that made him look like less of a coward.
And no, I wasn't stupid. A friend of mine had seen what was going on and had already circled to the other side of him. He'd have gotten one punch at me, and that's about it.
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king kurt
Regular Member
United Kingdom
24 Posts |
Posted - 05/29/2004 : 01:18:16
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I know the mug in the pub type situation
a kind of pittey/discust attitude works
but what about war. from talks with my
grandfather about his war times his attitude
to the enemy was compleatly opposite they
where guys just the same as him just doing
there job humans being humans samurai/ninja
could not have been a million miles away
but this does bring up that sticky old subject of japanese brutallity of that time
useing or as I belive abuseing bushido
for some of the most incredible treatment
of human beings I have ever heard of that
even puts the nazis in the shade as a member
of the british legion i still have to keep
quite about practicing a jappanise art as I
found out when I was asked to value a katana
this old boy had picked up during the war
which I gladly did but when asked how I knew about such thing i told them and the look
on there faces made me feel terrible no
amount of talk from a 30 year old about proper bushido was going to cut it with these veterans all I know is to live by these ideas in a future frame of mind
and live a good and honerable life
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mog roith
Frequent Member
Canada
117 Posts |
Posted - 05/29/2004 : 01:54:56
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I know all about that; both from my limited study of 'feudal' Japan (in quotations because it's a horribly inaccurate term), and also from the graduate-level course I took this year on WWII. Did my paper on whether the A-bomb was justified, but we also had a session on the "Forgotten Holocaust"; all the Japanese atrocities committed during the War.
Sure, these were corruptions of the Bushido code. And many Japanese were equally sickened when they found out what their army had been up to. When the military got the reins of power, they took the country to moral places the people had no desire to go. And it had nothing to do with bushido; it had to do with a more modern belief that the Japanese were a God-gifted superior people destined to rule Asia. Not that that makes it even remotely right; but it had as little to do with Bushido as Nazi philosophies had to do with chivalric codes; both invoked the same kinds of bases, but for completely corrupted reasons.
Not that 'feudal' Japan wasn't brutal. It was. So was medieval Europe. It's a phase many, if not most, cultures go through, where populations are increasing quickly enough that the few holding power can effectively abuse those who don't without completely undercutting their basic services.
As for the bit about soldiers on both sides having the same viewpoint; especially in WWI that was true. Early in the war, on the European trenches, the troops themselves almost as a whole disobeyed orders and both sides celebrated Christmas together. There were also long-standing unofficial truces along the lines; "You shoot at that useless hill on our side, and we'll shoot at that one on yours, then nobody dies." This, again, wasn't anything like Bushido, it had to do with the fact that neither side's people had any vested interest in the war; it was purely political, and so both armies had little real reason to fight.
Under what I know of Bushido, though, the principle to aim for is that one of 'righteousness' I mentioned earlier; if you do nothing to provoke a fight, then you are morally free to respond to aggression with whatever force you need to. There's also the anger and "I'm in the right" feelings that go along with it that boost confidence.
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LCPLPunk
Frequent Member
USA
236 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2004 : 10:15:08
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On the war question..just returning from the Iraqi war thing about 2 months ago, I know firsthand the attitudes and actions of war. Like what was mentioned earlier we had the 'We don't deserve anything bad' attitude whenever we would go out into the city. We didn't want to hurt anyone, but if someone wanted to hurt us, we would do everything in our power to hurt them and survive.
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kenjin
Regular Member
Venezuela
29 Posts |
Posted - 07/07/2004 : 08:20:03
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Hi, correct me if i'm wrong, but i think that one has to go into a fight with the only thought of survival, 'cuz there is no winners only survivors(¿did i spell t right?). Another thing is that the samurais and ninjas of those ages had a complety different way of thinking or a different honor code, so that u cannot tell which is fearless and which is not. My particular thought is that a ninja survives no matter what but the samurai dies for his/her honor, again, two diferent ideals, two diferent ways of life.
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LCPLPunk
Frequent Member
USA
236 Posts |
Posted - 07/07/2004 : 23:01:01
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Interesting observation. While survival is the key goal..I think you also have to make sure your 'survival' is not everything. I mean, if a guy grabs you, you aren't gonna kill him. I think alot of survival tactics must be smart decisions, you must decide how much it will take to survive, then execute it.
What i'm trying to get at is..don't fight with a sword if the other guy is using a spoon. :P
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kenjin
Regular Member
Venezuela
29 Posts |
Posted - 07/08/2004 : 09:41:28
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:P u're right punk, but i didn't mean with "there are no winners only survivors" that we HAVE to kill the opponent. I guess i just didnt order my thoughts b4 writting :P.
P.S: The best fight is the one where noone fights.
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LCPLPunk
Frequent Member
USA
236 Posts |
Posted - 07/08/2004 : 12:08:45
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I think i might have just read your message wrong. :)
I understand what your saying.
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studious_ninja
Frequent Member
Japan
127 Posts |
Posted - 07/09/2004 : 00:20:59
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| if a guy attacks you with a spoon chances are he's not really thinking about seriously hurting/maiming/or killing you. so therefore, it wouldn't really be considered a fight would it. it would be a 'tussle' (love that word) when you think of this art it's done with combat in mind. Jissen. It first starts with how you present yourself. Such as where are you, who are you with, who is opposing you, and where did he get that spoon? If your training has worked the chances of getting into a combat situation are minimal at best (military service not withstanding) Therefore if you are being attacked, chances are your opponent really wants to hurt you. Your first thought then is 'survival/self preservation' Sure you're probably not going to kill him, but you're the survivor nonetheless. Make sense? Maybe not, but hey, I'm just a guy on the internet. |
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LCPLPunk
Frequent Member
USA
236 Posts |
Posted - 07/09/2004 : 08:25:51
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Makes good sense. :) And even internet guys need protection.
I'm still really unsure what I would do in the situation like that.
I had a friend tell me that him and his girlfriend were coming out of a club when out of nowhere 5 guys jumped him and kicked the crap out of him. Now if he could have defended himself, but what would have been 'good' self-defense? I mean, 5 guys jumping me makes me think i'm going to get seriously injured, if not dead.
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kenjin
Regular Member
Venezuela
29 Posts |
Posted - 07/09/2004 : 11:31:44
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Hey, fighting is not the only way of survival, jyst try toget ur way between those guys and get u and anyone with you out of there. I rather say here i ran than here i died. it might not make any sence in english but in spanish it does.:P
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stebucky
Frequent Member
United Kingdom
110 Posts |
Posted - 07/09/2004 : 13:47:34
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Sometimes you can't run, then it is do or die... And who knows they might be more scared of you, if you turned round and turned on them.
How serious do I take training?... How serious do you take life?........ |
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bigshadow
Regular Member
USA
20 Posts |
 Posted - 07/09/2004 : 16:05:20
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I like the "Rightousness" mentality. That works for me!
Cheers,
Bigshadow formerly "druss"
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LCPLPunk
Frequent Member
USA
236 Posts |
Posted - 07/09/2004 : 17:22:43
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Might makes right, right? :P
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kenjin
Regular Member
Venezuela
29 Posts |
Posted - 07/12/2004 : 19:34:12
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I don`t think might makes right, well it made in other time, nut not now.... as for do or die, if theres is no other way do, but if you find a more pacefull way to solve things, everyone would be harmless.
If you follow a drak path, you will always find troubles
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Topic |
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samurai/ninja
