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trikbuster88
New Member
USA
9 Posts |
 Posted - 11/08/2001 : 19:23:41
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What sword art does the Ninja use for the sword they use?
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bujin
Regular Member
USA
13 Posts |
 Posted - 11/09/2001 : 16:14:44
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I'm not sure I can answer your question,but I'm happy to try. Considering 6 of our nine schools are samurei, I would imagine the sword movements are similar.
I will certainly ask my instructor.
Ban Pan Fugoyo
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trikbuster88
New Member
USA
9 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2001 : 20:45:27
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oh ok thank you
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Shizen9
Frequent Member
USA
134 Posts |
Posted - 11/13/2001 : 14:59:30
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I'll try to elaborate a little.
Since ninja do not like to limit themselves to any one particular style, many sword styles have been incorporated. Since some of the first ninja were warriors from China, some Chinese sword-fighting skills were used. Most of the nine schools of the Bujinkan include their own sword techniques. Togakure ryu traditionally used a short, straight blade with mostly linear movements, hacking slashes and sometimes an inverted grip. Kukishin ryu includes use of many weapons and how to wear samurai armor. I've heard of a technique from that school that has the blade of the sword resting against the helmet horizontally instead of raised high at a 45 degree angle like in many other styles. Other sword schools that have been used by Bujin ninja are Musashi's two sword style as well as Itto ryu, and Bokuden ryu. I recommend Charles Daniel's book: "kenjutsu" for good sword info. Studying the sword is very rewarding, and is usually included in all traditional Japanese martial arts. It is said that even Bruce Lee practiced European fencing to improve his empty-handed fighting skills.
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trikbuster88
New Member
USA
9 Posts |
Posted - 11/22/2001 : 18:34:03
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Ah ok. I have another question.
Did the Ninja AND the Samurai both use a bokken for fighting, or just the Ninja?
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teisatsu
Starting Member
USA
3 Posts |
Posted - 11/25/2001 : 04:44:50
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Shizen,
I'm not sure where you're getting your information about the Togakure Ryu style blade. I have heard Hatsumi-sensei say, specifically, that straight blades, such as the hollywood-type ninja to, were not used by ninja but by gangsters.
trik,
Bokken are and were training weapons. There are accounts of them being used in duels and subsequently becoming killing weapons (ala Musashi) but that was not their original purpose.
Talk is Cheap. |
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trikbuster88
New Member
USA
9 Posts |
Posted - 11/25/2001 : 12:17:39
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hm..ok thank you
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Shizen9
Frequent Member
USA
134 Posts |
Posted - 12/04/2001 : 14:17:35
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I got that information from the book: Ninjutsu - History and Tradition, written by Hatsumi about the togakure ryu. I have also read the same in other works, and have been told that by 2 sensei I have trained with. The short straight blade and square hand guard was the traditional ninja weapon, because ninja usually did not have access to the higher quality samurai type katana. Of course, If a ninja could get ahold of a superior blade, then he would, but many historical documents make reference to the shorter blade being easier to carry, and the square hand guard being used as a tool.
I would like to know when you heard Soke say that ninja never used the "hollywood-type" blade, or if you read it somewhere, or heard it through another source. I'm not trying to discredit your information sources or start a debate. I just want to make sure that I have the right information. Ninjutsu - History and Tradition was written a long time ago, and I have heard that Hatsumi himself said that he wrote it prematurely and there may be mistakes in it.
The important, practical point is: A ninja will use whatever weapon is available and appropriate to the situation, even if it means using a crude "gangster" weapon.
[quote]Originally posted by teisatsu:
Shizen,
I'm not sure where you're getting your information about the Togakure Ryu style blade. I have heard Hatsumi-sensei say, specifically, that straight blades, such as the hollywood-type ninja to, were not used by ninja but by gangsters. |
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ninjrk
Starting Member
USA
1 Posts |
Posted - 01/02/2002 : 11:03:26
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[quote]Originally posted by Shizen9:
I got that information from the book: Ninjutsu - History and Tradition, written by Hatsumi about the togakure ryu. I have also read the same in other works, and have been told that by 2 sensei I have trained with. The short straight blade and square hand guard was the traditional ninja weapon, because ninja usually did not have access to the higher quality samurai type katana. Of course, If a ninja could get ahold of a superior blade,
[quote]Originally posted by teisatsu:
As I've been trying to learn everything about the "ninja sword" since I started several years ago, let me tell you what I know.
First, Hatsumi-soke pretty much layed this to rest at the '96 Tai kai. The straight sword was not used (as evinced even by the beautiful, curved bokken that were specially made for him for the event) and was dismissed with a comment that went basically "why would a ninja carry a weapon that screamed "ninja!"."
Further, even in Hatsumi's earlier books, there are no pictures of him with a straight sword. The text in his early English books is not his, although I can't for the life of me remember who wrote that one.
Then you can talk to Japanese sword historians (check the nihonto list for many like Chris and others). Are there ninja swords in museums? No. Why would a ninja need a crude, home-made sword? During the Sengoku era, swords were everywhere. Many merchants even carried them. Prior to the Tokugawa shogunate darned near everyone had swords. Hundreds of thousands of them littered various battlefields and were being mass-produced for the ashigaru. Getting a sword simply wasn't difficult.
Outside of decorative presentation swords, the Japanese didn't really make straight swords. Where do they come from? Two inter-connected theories. First, the play. The same plays that gave us the black costume needed a different sword for it's ninja. How else can you tell them apart from the samurai when they're disguised on stage? Plus, it's easier to pound out a cheap straight hunk of metal. Second, the grain of truth. What was the most common sword of the 1500's, that littered the battlefields and were readily available? The uschigatana. A cheap, mass-produced sword for the ashigaru. A minimal curve, shorter than a standard katana, and all over the place. Usually with a simple guard of sheet steel or iron, usually in a crude 4-lobed design. Sound familiar?
So, there is no evidence that the ninja used a different sword and no existing examples of period "ninja" swords. Hatsumi-soke's sword collection consists of hundreds of CURVED "ninja-swords". Hatsumi-soke himself has publically stated that there ain't no such thing. The uschigatana was what was readily available and, when disguised, what a low ranking commonor or foot-soldier would have carried, so the perfect sword for blending in.
No offense, but if instructors repeat this stuff, they're wrong. Had Hayes-sensei not written this stuff in his early books when he didn't know better, it wouldn't be an issue. To be honest, the average bujinkan instructor knows much about how to use the tools but doodly-squat about how they were made or their characteristics.
Just my $0.02
Matt
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Shizen9
Frequent Member
USA
134 Posts |
 Posted - 01/03/2002 : 12:19:18
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Excellent information, Matt. Thank you.
I'll discuss it with my shidoshi and see if they can elaborate. I'm sure there is alot of misinformation floating around. Hopefully forums like this one will have more fact than fiction.
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Poryu
Starting Member
United Kingdom
2 Posts |
Posted - 01/10/2002 : 06:52:51
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Hi all
i agree totally with Ninjrk.
Ninja did not use straight swords. The straight sword was used inthe very early years of the Japans history. Ihave handled a sword dated at around 600ad and is classed as Chokuto - straight blade.
Various books written in the early years of the International Bujinkan have caused a lot of damage for those entering in later years.
I have yet to see Hatsumi photographed with a straight sword. You willnot see him with one if the photo was taken in japan.
as for the square guard. The Ninja if he chose to use a NINJA tsuba according to Hatsumi used one which is called 'Mokko' this is a four petal design.
Look at the Quest Biken video, that sword all the shihan have has the Mokko tsuba.
As for what sword styles did they study. Thats easy to answer. Togakure Ryu used Togakure Ryu sword kata, Kukishin used Kukishin sword kata. there may have been influences from outside, but by the time these people were active on the battlefields any traces of chinese influence was as good as gone. The one thing the Japanese are good at and that is converting anything tot he japanese way of doing it. I have never seen a Japanese sword style that moves like for example - Kung Fu or Wushu.
History and Traditons I am told was not all written by hatsumi. 50% of the photos come form an early book called Sengoku Ninpo Zukan. History is a very watered down verion of that book, and says everything is Togakure Ryu. Yet there is Kuki Koto etc in it. In fact the Ninja ken on pages 94 and 104 looks very curved to me. The only person with a straight sword is Hayes. 105 shows Hatsumi and a Shihan (i think it is Kobayashi) with curved swords.
I think the straight sword story was amyth of the 1980's psuedo ninja and hollywood
Paul Richardson
Bujinkan Lincoln Dojo |
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wekaf
Starting Member
1 Posts |
Posted - 01/24/2002 : 19:23:50
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Hello to all I am not sure where all ninja
get there swords, However I have a Tozando
Iai I wish to sell. Blade is 2.45 cm style is a large grip Koshirae asking $475.00USD.
Contact crzy4antqs@earthlink.net for jpegs
and info.
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teisatsu
Starting Member
USA
3 Posts |
Posted - 01/24/2002 : 23:03:54
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[quote]Originally posted by Shizen9:
I would like to know when you heard Soke say that ninja never used the "hollywood-type" blade, or if you read it somewhere, or heard it through another source. [quote][b]
I heard Hatsumi-sensei say exactly that at the 1989 Tai Kai. San Francisco no New Jersey. If I remember correctly, it is also on the video.
Talk is Cheap. |
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Poryu
Starting Member
United Kingdom
2 Posts |
Posted - 01/25/2002 : 05:20:04
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Hi
I cant find anytig that says they were straight or curved. I used to have a lot more paper info I had collected but that got lost when I left my parents house some years ago. I have sent out emails to old frined sto see if we can locate more accurate statements.
But to just refer to Hatsumi's books.
In history and traditions, there are pics of curved blades that supposed to be ninja swords. Yet the text says straight. i have been led to believe that Hatsumi di dnto write the text for this book, but S. Hyaes did. In Ninja/Ninpo Gaho there are photos of curved blades and not straight ones. IN the Biken video Hatsumi and the Shihan use curved blades.
i have an exercise for you test the difference between a curved and straight blade. In the Biken video and in the sword curriculum of Togakure Biken there is an movement called, Kage no itto. this is were the sword is moved form theleft side to the right and the sword is drawn ove the right should. Try with a curved then a straight and see the results. To draw a straight blade over the shoulder at that angle is very difficult, curved is much easier. This however, does not prove the straight/curved theory/discussion. I will see if I can track more details down
Paul Richardson
Bujinkan Lincoln Dojo |
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Mykorion
New Member
Dominica
5 Posts |
Posted - 02/12/2002 : 11:35:17
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Hello, this is my first time on this forum.
I would just like to ask what is the importance of whether a sword is staright or curved?
I understand the history of the sword to the extent that my mind permits me due to lack of full knowledge and total understanding.
I see it like this. In the early days the straight sword was used and this was what the ninja had to use, but when the sword was improved and made curved people began to use curved instead of the straight sword because it was more advantageous in battle.
I have read some articles which state that, the ninja swrds in those times were less in value and design than those of the samurai because the samurai where wealthier than the ninjas.So the ninja had to resort to what ever metal they could use and pound and shape into a sword.Infact if a ninja were to overcome a Samurai he would take his sword because it was better.
So I think that this whole sword thing all boils down to history. It seems that the most used sword for the ninja is curved because as time progresed one could easily attain one.
this whole thing just seems to be based on which sword is better and more advantageous in battle. If you prefer a straight sword why not use it. I guess if you want it to be correctly done and to fully understand you have to follow the "Exact" words of some one who knows about it.
Dr.Masaaki Hatsumi the 34 grand master of Togakure Ryu is a very wise man and seems to be the best reference for such a topic. So I think we should just follow the wise master's words.
This is all so confusing right now, i think i will go take a rest now.Later everybody.
May we all be richly blest with good health,respectful attitdes,a spiritual bond , knowledge and understanding by the man upstairs.
I strive to be better every day and to be successful I must learn to appreciate love and life.I must be content with what little I have, for as long as something is rightfully attained it is of great value. |
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Khafra
Regular Member
USA
29 Posts |
 Posted - 03/05/2002 : 17:45:09
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'nother sword question here, one that's bothered me for a while. I read that European fencers switched from sabre to foil or epee early because the point is more deadly than the edge. Obviously, the Japanese don't agree. Who's right?
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sword
