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dirithtai
Regular Member
USA
93 Posts |
 Posted - 04/17/2002 : 00:07:46
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Okay, I know I'm asking a lot of questions, but hey, its the only way to find out the answers.
What does everyone here think about studying other styles in conjunction with Taijitsu. Specifically, I wanted to study some bits of Iaido to help with my sword-work, and Aikido to help in flow and smoothness.
Is this a good idea? I know some Sensei don't like it, but all of the Sensei I work with said they wouldn't mind, but I'm not sure if it would help or hinder.
Any feedback would be appreciated
Thanks
"In emptiness there is good but no evil. Wisdom exists, logic exists, the Way exists, but the mind is empty."
--Musashi
This post brought to you by dirithtai and the letter "D"
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Ike
Regular Member
USA
63 Posts |
Posted - 04/17/2002 : 01:04:04
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There is an old thread about taking sport martial arts and bujinkan on kutaki no mura @
http://www.kutaki.org/Forum15/HTML/000224.html
Not exactly the same, but there are some good opinions on the subject of training in other arts and bujinkan at the same time.
I personally would not recommend this while still a kyu rank, or while you are still learning the basics of our art. Thats just my opinion.
And please ask as many questions as you want, this board is worthy of some more action! :)
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dirithtai
Regular Member
USA
93 Posts |
Posted - 04/18/2002 : 00:37:58
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Thank you very much, I found the thread very enlightning. I'll definately have to do a bit more research before I hop into other arts, though from my minimal understanding, Aikido isn't exactly a sport style like TKD, but again, perhaps I should wait for a time to try and get my taijitsu a little less crappy than it is now, as well.
"In emptiness there is good but no evil. Wisdom exists, logic exists, the Way exists, but the mind is empty."
--Musashi
This post brought to you by dirithtai and the letter "D" |
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Shizen9
Frequent Member
USA
134 Posts |
Posted - 04/18/2002 : 22:21:42
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The usual (and good) advice is to wait a while before mixing and matching. I first studied shorinji kempo karate as a kid, but didn't get far as it just "wasn't my style" if you know what I mean. I went a while without any kind of training, but I read a lot about many arts. I soon became interested in ninjutsu and the other buj' arts, and finally found a shidoshi nearby about 3 years ago. I am still trying to iron out the bad habits of karate, but I also benefit from some good habits and skills I learned in that prior art. I recently started taking aikido about a year ago, because I had just moved from Palm Beach to Orlando, FL and hadn't found a buj dojo yet. I figured I would do aikido just to "stay in shape" until I found a shidoshi in my area, but it turns out that aikido training is very similar to taijutsu. I decided to stick with it and do both styles simultaneously. I do get a little confused at times, but as long as I do aikido in the aikido dojo and taijutsu in the taijutsu dojo, everyone is happy. The major problem I have is when I use taijutsu techniques in aikido class out of habit. It's just so natural for me now. I have to literally force myself not to kick my aikido buddies in the knee or do excesive chops to the neck while throwing. Otherwise, I'm glad I have more training sessions per week to work on ukemi, rolling, posture, and overall fighting spirit.
I've noticed that people that have a background in aikido do well in taijutsu because they already know how to fall, how to do many wrist grab escapes and know principles of throwing. If you start with taijutsu, I recommend waiting a while before mixing. I sortof wish I waited longer, but the two arts are good compliments to eachother. I suppose iaido would be a good one to cross-train with too. I don't know much about it, but it will give more sword exposure.
Gambatte!
mdm |
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Shadowdeamon311
Regular Member
United Kingdom
26 Posts |
 Posted - 03/07/2003 : 10:35:52
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Hi!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
ahem...
I trained in karate for 3 years before I found a ninjutsu dojo near me. I found that the totally different way each of them are practiced adds to the furtherence of each of them, for exsample, when I started Ninjutsu,I could already kick, and I knew most of the hand movements. In karate, my main problem was that I was way to tense, In turn, my ninjutsu helped me remedy this. However, there are some dissadvantages aswell. My stanses in karate are getting smaller, and I do sometimes mess up ninjutsu techniques because I am to tense, and use to putting every muscle in my body into every move. Also, there is a bit of jealousy on the part of my karate instructor who does not like me joining another club....
However, I think it can be valuable to practice another art to further your ninjutsu- but if you do it to much, you may end up with unwanted side effects....
( Cue eeirie music.)
Yours, Shadowdeamon
"Those who use the military skillfully do not raise armies twice, and do not provide food three times." - Sun Tzu |
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mog roith
Frequent Member
Canada
117 Posts |
Posted - 03/07/2003 : 23:30:20
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It's interesting that people keep mentioning Aikido, considering that Masaaki Hatsumi was a grand-master in Aikido when he left that art to train in the Bujinkan.
One of the core philosophies of Ninpo is 'whatever works'. If another art is good in combat, it is a good addition to your skills. The theory behind it, however, is that Ninjutsu teaches you the essential core, the fluidity, the mindset necessary to fight that many sport arts simply don't have, at least not to the same degree. So, if your Ninjutsu training is down pretty solidly, there's no problem in training in another art, it's beneficial. You generally need to have the basics down first, and by 'basics' I mean you should be in at the least the high kyu ranks, 1st or 2nd. This gives you the ability to recognize what the other art is doing, in contrast to what Ninjutsu teaches, and helps prevent that learning of 'bad' habits, or at least making use of them conscious, so they can be applied when useful.
Of course, I'm speaking as a 6th kyu practitioner, but I don't feel I've got even close to a good enough grasp to start adding another art. It would be like trying to learn more than one language at once, you'd keep mixing them up.
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Elfin Vampire Heirophant
Frequent Member
Australia
120 Posts |
 Posted - 03/10/2003 : 12:06:52
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I really hope this isn't going to be an unwelcome involvement...
You could get super-finicky about wholly inherant original Ninpo and separate indigenous ancient forms such as (presumably) Koshijutsu, Koppojutsu and Happo Hikenjutsu, citing overseas perceptual influence in developing (speculatively) Taijutsu/everything else specifically-jutsu..however (illustratively) an integral hand-to-hand combat system was enveloped. So in the contemporary 21st-century other martial arts dojo's may add to your personal development of Ninpo, there's certainly quite a variety to choose from.
True consideration however that one's originality may lead them away from Hatsumi soke's envisionment, though whom can say?
As a take, you could make the whole thing a historical study. Kung Fu for a bit, then search for it's cultural influence into an ancient, developing Taijutsu system.
Aikido and then the historical perspective of Bujinkan Ninpo to figure the elements drawn to its creation.
Karate and its almost aspect-specific physical relationship with Ninjutsu's Fire element (unless you're a bored, 300lb Shihan in which case you're probably in an Earth most of the time).
Capoeira as an upside down and on the ground mixture of Tae Kwon Do and Kung Fu?
I'm curious however, what is Iaido for? I understand it to be the artistic practise of drawing-sword cuts and has the specific, alluminium alloy non-weapon Iaito. In entertainment of Bujinkan Iaijutsu, is it a religious exercise?
Kind regards, Elfin. |
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mog roith
Frequent Member
Canada
117 Posts |
Posted - 03/12/2003 : 10:50:54
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From what little I know of Iaido (as opposed to iaijutsu, the combat applications) is that it is similar to tai chi, a form of meditation. In a combat form, iaijutsu deals most specifically with drawing the sword as fast as possible, a practitioner should be able to start standing or kneeling, sword sheathed, and then draw, cut, and return the scabbard before the target hits the ground. Very ninjutsu-ish, in that someone who is apparently not ready for an attack can ready his sword almost instantly when attacked.
Done properly, the whole is a smooth motion, the draw IS the cut, which flows right back into the scabbard.
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Elfin Vampire Heirophant
Frequent Member
Australia
120 Posts |
 Posted - 03/12/2003 : 12:56:57
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Regarding the speed of a drawn Katana's return, I understand Samurai used to carry a handkerchief with which to wipe down their blade so it would never be placed in the scabbard too soiled as to eventually damage the metal, the action of which could be incorperated into the customary backsliding of the blade against the scabbard's mouth before replacement into its often wooden body...
The name of the individual whom is credited with earliest instance of Iaijutsu sometime during Japan's torrid history eludes me, however he was reputedly wealthy, of Samurai station and not overly involved with combative arts. This apparently wasn't recieved too well and over some trivial matter he'd found himself standing upon a verandah facing an experienced swordsman. Dangerous conversation was played and at some point this gentleman stepped forward and drew his Katana in a slicing motion, cutting down his would-be assailant. According to the story his fencing skills thereafter seemed a little less relevant throughout the town's streets.
The description you provided does sound like those I've read/heard regarding Iaido, an art of "lightning fast draw-cut-return with a Katana," by repute.
I do apolegize for my coyness.
"The learning is in life."
Kind regards, Elfin. |
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mog roith
Frequent Member
Canada
117 Posts |
Posted - 03/13/2003 : 18:16:28
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Another little 'trick' in Iaido I neglected to mention has to do with that cleaning thing you mentioned, Elfin, though not with a handkerchief. The temper and oil on a well-kept blade are enough so that, when snapped through a quick slash, any blood or other stuff stuck to the blade would flick off. This is why you always see people in martial arts movies after they cut down 30 people give their blade a sharp flick so it points down at a steep angle before returning it to the scabbard, they're cleaning it.
Of course, this would leave some traces on the blade, hence that handkerchief and other care practices, but this got off enough stuff that the blade wouldn't get stuck in the scabbard and be hard to draw the next time, obviously helpful during dangerous times when there might be need to draw quickly several times a day.
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kageneko
Starting Member
USA
2 Posts |
 Posted - 03/29/2004 : 18:08:34
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Personally I think that if you want to study iado you should remember two things. The first being that most arts other than ninjitsu are stiff, and secondly, that while studying other arts to keep in mind the differences between those and ninja. Example, while learning the different moves think to yourself"if i used this in combat, the movement would be fluid, the intention more subtle." you may think this is a given, but many people lose themselves in the study of the forms, and forget about combat affectivness. I would develop my own exercises and take what i could use from others discarding the rest. after all studying tae kwon do may give you a quicker kick, and shotokan may give you a more powerful punch, but they could prove practically useless in combat. In the streets your opponent is not confined to ritual, he is the guy by the telephone boothe, the junkie in the alley, wondering where the next fix will come from.
with respect.the Lark
all things unfold as they should |
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Shaolin Punchbag
New Member
United Kingdom
9 Posts |
Posted - 04/18/2004 : 20:37:51
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Personally I think cross-training, in most instances, is a very good idea, provided you have a strong grounding in one basic art beforehand.
Personally, I had a lot of experience (almost 10 years' worth) in Shotokan karate before I started training in other arts. As it is quite a stiff, external style, I found it difficult at first to get a good grip on the new art (Wing Chun), which stresses a scientific, relaxed and flowing approach to self-defense, much like taijutsu. However, now that the concept of cross-training has embedded itself in my mind, I find it quite easy to mix my experiences with several different arts (I have studied many) to create my own unique mixture of style. After all, it's all about what works for you. Change the style to fit the man, not the man to fit the style.
The only thing I would suggest is to try to keep it to one approach in the beginning. Taijutsu and Aikido go very well together as they both have the same principles of soft, flowing movements to generate power. However, you will not learn much in Aikido that will not be found in Taijutsu. Therefore, it may be advisable to take a harder style in conjunction with Taijutsu, to compensate for Taijutsu's lack of real physical force in striking techniques (which is, sometimes, necessary). I find the softness of Taijutsu mixed with the hardness of Shaolin to be a good combination, though difficult to combine at first. Now these are my 2 main arts, adn they serve me well.
Good luck finding the right combination for you, and find your way in Budo!
"I have never made but one prayer to God, a short one; 'Oh lord, make my enemies ridiculous'. And God granted it." - Voltaire |
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studious_ninja
Frequent Member
Japan
127 Posts |
Posted - 04/19/2004 : 23:35:45
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| This isn't meant to be taken as criticism (which it may be) but Taijutsu doesn't 'lack' punching power. If you feel you lack punching power, it usually means you aren't using your whole body to punch properly. Unfortunately, there is a great many people in the Bujinkan (and other arts as well) who don't have proper body mechanics when striking. Again, take this as you will. |
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solaris
Regular Member
United Kingdom
44 Posts |
Posted - 04/20/2004 : 04:47:47
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There is a guy that i work with in the company and they are a judo instructor black 4thdan i think and they have taken up ninjutsu in the past and they are excellent at the floor work took to this like a duck to water.
threy have attributed this to the level of judo they are at. So i guess each and everyone of us has something that we can cross train with.
sully |
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Shaolin Punchbag
New Member
United Kingdom
9 Posts |
Posted - 04/20/2004 : 12:00:01
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Sorry, I think this misunderstanding is my fault as I didn't fully explain what I meant earlier.
When I say Taijutsu lacks punching power, I don't mean it lacks the ability to cause your opponent pain and stop them in their tracks with striking attacks. My Sensei occasionally demonstrates a way of punching using the minimum of physical force, and let me tell you, I know it's effective!
What I mean is that Taijutsu generally lacks the external element of training that is emphasized a lot more in arts like Shaolin. Kicks in Taijutsu are a good example. Taijutsu's kicks are generally used more as a distraction or a light blow than as a way of utilising the huge muscle density present in the legs, which can potentially be devastating. In Taijutsu, when we kick someone, it is usually for the purpose of throwing them off balance or setting them up for another technique like a throw, lock or strike (much like the atemi used in Aikido). In an external art like Shaolin or Muay Thai, when we kick someone, they go straight down, they go down hard, and they often don't get up for quite a while.
Obviously I am not pointing this out as a "flaw", as such, in Taijutsu, but it should be noted that no art is 100% complete or perfect, and the only thing Taijutsu lacks, in my opinion, is real external power (as it is mainly an internal art). This is why I would reccommend, rather than taking another internal art like Aikido, in which the student will be learning many of the same things in both arts (which is no bad thing if you wish to specialise), I prefer the approach of becoming a more fully rounded martial artist by combining it with an external art like Shaolin, Muay Thai, or Wing Chun (which has a good balance of internal and external, and would compliment Taijutsu very well).
"I have never made but one prayer to God, a short one; 'Oh lord, make my enemies ridiculous'. And God granted it." - Voltaire |
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mog roith
Frequent Member
Canada
117 Posts |
Posted - 04/25/2004 : 15:16:20
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Shaolin; in my experience, taijutsu can very easily hit hard with strikes. At least, in my dojo we've done power-strikes intended to drop the opponent in one shot. True, they often are based around hitting at or near a pressure point, or using the body mechanic to maximize the force, but that's just good sense. The basic Taijutsu front kick is a good example; the basic way my sensei describes it is 'kicking down a door'. It's hardly a gentle kick if you don't want it to be.
Hand strikes, similarly, are based on technique rather than power. In theory (as I've never actually done this), the blocks in Koto ryu can break the opponent's arm. That's not a soft strike. Sure, all these strikes can be done without force, if the intent is different, but that is the great strength of Ninjutsu, IMHO; the great variety you get.
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Studying other arts
