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joe
Regular Member
20 Posts |
 Posted - 07/31/2002 : 00:28:27
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Hi, my name is Joe. I started training in ninjitsu in '92 or so. I got my blackbelt and trained in the art until about a year ago. But I always felt like i was missing something, i did not have the confidence in my skills or experience with these new skills to use them.
Mabey i did have the experience to use these skills, but did no know because I never really used them; confidence. Sure, i routinly took down partners taller and much heavier in class. They really went down because I would jump to a completely different tech (but with the same concept being shown) and they would fall hard.
Currently I am doing another art, bjj. And it has what i need, confidence in the skills that I am learning. I want to know on the street that if I do a given skill, that it is going to work; the last thing I want to do is second guess myself. I still believe that the art of ninjitsu is quite effective, but after training in a different art and tasting a different experience, I have to say its the training of ninjitsu that is wrong!
The problem (I believe) is the non-competitive atmosphere. I have been consistently told mainly that competition is too dangerous with these techniques, or that too many people would be injured. Frankly, I know now that this is flat out untrue!!! How I know is that I do these techniques and tech outside this art that are extremely damaging if completed, and i am not/havnt been severly injured. Yes, there have been serious injuried but nothing that would permenent stop my training (ribs, ankels, wrists...) My point is that competition between students with the correct skills is not to dangerous to do.
My opinion is now 180 degrees different. I would now argue that friendly competiton is absolutly necessary to develop ones skills. What i have learned in bjj in the last 1yr w/ competiton probably has been equivalent to 3 years of non-competition in bujinkan. Competition allows you to see what you are doing right, doing wrong, and explore. How many people here have played sports and really excelled when there was competition at about the same skill level or higher than themseves? Competition pushes the envelope and allows us to grow.
Joe Miguel
please subject emails as not spam
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Ike
Regular Member
USA
63 Posts |
Posted - 07/31/2002 : 03:40:02
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congratulations....(wheres the smilie of sarcastically rolling of the eyes?)
, I have to say its the training of ninjitsu that is wrong!
Please joe, wrong for YOU. Right for so many others....
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ninja-noob@NL
Regular Member
Netherlands
41 Posts |
Posted - 07/31/2002 : 07:06:42
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well joe , i selected the ninjutsu also for the fact that there isn't a competition part involved.. and i must say that it's good to know your place in the dojo ( as a newbie that is! ;) ) and that there is definatly a benefit of the non-competition 'feeling' within this... but ; that's my opinion...
i live in the shadow, i excist in de dark.... |
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joe
Regular Member
20 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2002 : 00:34:50
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No, please. I am trying to make a point about a weakness of the training, if you disagree then present your arguement.
Again, my arguement is about effective training.
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Ike
Regular Member
USA
63 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2002 : 01:38:55
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Thats just it Joe, I dont see it as a weakness. I see the fact that you see it as a weakness, a weakness.
Again, my arguement is about effective training.
Effective for YOU. Please dont come on a bujinkan forum telling everyone that they are training incorrectly, you're scaring the newbies  . Maybe bujinkan was not the right art for you...?
I think that I'll continue to train the way Hatsumi-sensei has instructed.
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morphics
New Member
USA
8 Posts |
 Posted - 08/01/2002 : 02:21:05
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I train at least 3 times a day for 2 hours at a time. I have been doing ti so long that I can make up my own hold or throw for just about any attack. You should try it Joe. Take the core teachings and do something that feels comfortable for you and you will advance and see that it is not a lacking as you say it is.
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joe
Regular Member
20 Posts |
 Posted - 08/01/2002 : 10:24:34
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My intent is not out to scare newbies, or even other black belts :). What I am doing is voiceing what I have learned, an opinion that has completely flipped.
I see the problem is that my arguement hold no credibility with others because no one here knows my skill level. I have a couple of videos that i can put online, i will put the one where I throw around a student that i was teaching that was a lot bigger, taller, and stronger.
I will post a link in about a day.
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joe
Regular Member
20 Posts |
Posted - 08/02/2002 : 01:25:46
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I just wanted to follow up to a private email here and state it here too...
>Do you really think your going to change their opinion
No not really. Many martial artists have this odd quality that many deeply relious have, there quite the zealots. Nothing that anyone can state could change their mind, no matter what kind of arguement you provide, no matter what kind of historical records.
I am not out to change many opinions, but if i can just get a few more open minded folks to ponder the arguement then it was well worth it.
Also, i will need a little bit longre to get the server and video ready.
Edited by - joe on 08/02/2002 01:26:33 |
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dirithtai
Regular Member
USA
93 Posts |
Posted - 08/02/2002 : 03:02:20
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Well, okay, I disagree with your opinion about the ineffectiveness of my training, and here follows a rambling statement of why I disagree...
First and foremost, I've taken competitive Martial Arts before this, and I've found that it trains me very well for sport competition, I got fairly good at sparring, and took a few awards for sparring and kata before I realised I didn't like the training I was taking, because the only way for me to advance was to beat my freinds down, which isn't my style at all.
Second, I feel that training in a competitive manner with the techniques I've learned in only a year of Bujinkan training would have crippled me already. There are classes I come home and can't move for a good 3 hours cause of the beating I took, and we were going light. (Sure, I'm the training dummy in the class, but still, had the techniques been applied fully, I wouldn't be able to use my arms at all right now.
Third, new people to the art lack the control it takes to go full force competative combat without hurting each other. I haven't got the control to go any more than maybe 25% power with my mates in class, and even going that slow I've landed some throat shots that left my freind gasping for a few minutes. Had I been going all out he'd be dead, I'd be in jail, and wow, would that screw over my training.
fourth, in the competative style I trained in, I never hung out with guys from class outside of class because they were my rivals, to contrast, my training partners in BKT are my best freinds.
Fifth, I'm sure this will be interpreted as my "zealotism" towards my school, but I really don't think you're qualified to say that the style of training that Master Hatsumi has laid down is "wrong," no matter how long you've been training.
Finally, proof of the effectiveness of Bujinkan can be seen in any of the shihan, Shidoshi, dan ranked, heck, even some of the higher kyu-ranked people, just watching them move and fight is proof to anyone who knows what to look for that theri training is effective.
The lack of confindence you felt sounds primarily like a personal problem. If you couldn't get people to drop without using the exact technique shown in class, you were most likely doing something wrong in the first place, because in a non-competitive atmosphere, they weren't trying too terribly hard to stay up. but, regardless of that, I'm glad you're happy with your new style, best of luck to you in that, and go away, because frankly, I find it offensive that you insult the training style and teaching style of a large group of people who I not only greatly respect but count among my closest freinds.
Have fun hurting people.
"In emptiness there is good but no evil. Wisdom exists, logic exists, the Way exists, but the mind is empty."
--Musashi
Tim
Hidden Mountain Bujinkan Shibu of VA |
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Ike
Regular Member
USA
63 Posts |
Posted - 08/02/2002 : 16:05:58
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No not really. Many martial artists have this odd quality that many deeply relious have, there quite the zealots. Nothing that anyone can state could change their mind, no matter what kind of arguement you provide, no matter what kind of historical records
HUH?? What kind of argument are you providing? Oh..the old "I trained in the bujinkan (I think that was it..you never specified, and you did spell it 'ninjitsu'..) for a while and I cant fight or spar very well, so I took bjj and threw a big guy, so I'll tell the ninja boys that they are completely wrong in their style of training?? The training and teachings of Hatsumi-sensei? Wow...Im sold. Thats one of the weakest arguments ever. o_o Dont even get me started on the "historical records".
Seriously,..Im glad you found something that suits you better. But coming on a bujinkan forum and telling everyone that they are wrong just because bjj tickles your pickle more is just plain disrespectfull and rude.
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Furyu
New Member
USA
8 Posts |
Posted - 08/03/2002 : 08:16:31
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There is not weakness in the training. Perhaps the weakness was in you. If you had problems with confidence in you abilities, then perhaps you should have asked your instructor or brought up what you felt. You apply your experience in one dojo or at seminars and imply that all Bujinkan Dojo are the same way.
In our dojo, we do randori geiko and ground sparring (ne waza). The thing you have to watch out for is the ego getting in the way. Sometimes you tap the other guy out, sometimes you get tapped out, but it should be about the learning process either way.
If you are happy in BJJ then keep doing it, but don't spout misinformation (read crap) about effective training methods because of your own inadequacies.
Have you done any knife fighting while rolling on the ground? How about firearms? How about multiple attackers? I am not knocking BJJ, they are awesome technicians and tacticians on the ground. It is not rocket science. The techs are usually high percentage and are effective in their arena of use. Change the elements and the percentages change.
Gambatte!!
Matt
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joe
Regular Member
20 Posts |
Posted - 08/03/2002 : 20:37:36
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Furyu, you said you do randori geiko at your dojo. This goes exactly to my point.
But first, just so we speak the same language...
randori geiko: free sparring practise (geiko actually means training if i remember right)
competition: 2. A test of skill or ability; a contest: a skating competition.
The first was from a bujinkan site and the second from an online dictionary.
In randori, your are in competition to an agreed apon end state; you are both trying to reach it first, that is your not taking turns (excluding when sensi is helping a student) reaching it. You have agreed to a set of rules; speed, not delivering a real punch to the face or throat. Also, there are different levels of randori, the higher the level the less restrictive. Agree?
So we agree randori geiko is a form of competition? 'randori' is what i really implied when i wrote the first message, and it would have been a better word for me to use. But I know i would have received just as much hate mail back. There is a difference between 'randori geiko' and 'randori competiton'; one is on the training side, and the other is on the 'test of skill'. But the two really go hand in hand, students can easily do either one because they are so close.
Back to your message, you said that your dojo does randori. This is exactly what i think is lacking from so many dojos. There are many dojos that dont do it or do it infrequently. Moving frequently, I have trained with about 5 Shidoshi and one did randori, the others way too infrequently. At Buyu camps (headlands) I asked several Shidoshi if their classes did it on a frequent basis, two of ten did; the others focused on waza. After this weekend, I started questioning.
Why do i think randori is so important?! Because it builds your Budo, something that waza by themselves wont do. Each waza contains a message(s), a message about a concept or movement that someone decided was important enough to write down, teach and be passed down for hundreds of years. I have seen a lot of students who have a good movement, but they havnt emerged from the waza. They cant easily move freely, taking a piece of this and a piece of that, their training is ineffective. It is my belief that randori ('randori geiko' and 'randori competiton') is teaching this skill. Randori geiko in the dojo, and randori competition between dojos (organized events). The latter is usefull in letting students experience students in other dojos where a Shidoshi might focus on different aspects.
In conclusion, your dojo sounds just like the kind of dojo that i was looking for.
Joe
As I stated earlier, i dv'ed a training session. You wanted to know if i was any good to make these statements, well judge for yourself and to my arguements creditability. I am the one in the blue jeans. There are two files, the first is big and in divx format about 20 minutes of training. The second is just a small segment for folks on modems. I tested the adddress from a proxy and had no problems, so the address is http://66.134.242.247
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Ike
Regular Member
USA
63 Posts |
Posted - 08/04/2002 : 03:22:11
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That vid of you downing the big guy (whom appears to have the intention of a napping sloth) is supposed to prove the ineffectiveness of bujinkan training compared to what you do now with your new epiphone? This proves the 'credibility' of your claims?
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joe
Regular Member
20 Posts |
Posted - 08/04/2002 : 04:39:38
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In this thread and in emails others said basically that I was no good in the art; that I was 'just a white belt', and 'for a while and I cant fight or spar very well, so I took bjj'.
A private email stated they wanted to know how creditability I was for making such an arguement before they would listen to my arguement. They wanted to know that i was not just some 'hack' or green belt. So we both agreed that a video could be used to determine my skill level, and thus my creditability.
So NO! The video does not estabilish my 'claim(?)' of 'ninjitsu taught effectively', just that I am not a newbie.
I never stated as a fact that i had the right answer, and made a claim (A statement of something as a fact; an assertion of truth: makes no claim to be a cure) to the answer. one cannot do so with the words 'i believe', 'my opinion', 'I have to say'. I stated an arguement, not a claim.
This is the part that confuses me, you saw the video and you saw my skill level. You didnt attack my skill level, but you did of the guy i was training; a guy who got his green belt not long before this. Thats why he looks clumsly doing this movement, so sure he might not be as good as some of the people on this thread. As for sloth, he's stong, fast, and big. I prefer training with people who are bigger and strong than me, its much more more difficult to throw them around!!! So if you think I'm a newbie by that video state it!
Edited by - joe on 08/04/2002 04:42:59 |
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Ike
Regular Member
USA
63 Posts |
Posted - 08/04/2002 : 14:33:23
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This is the part that confuses me, you saw the video and you saw my skill level. You didnt attack my skill level, but you did of the guy i was training; a guy who got his green belt not long before this. Thats why he looks clumsly doing this movement, so sure he might not be as good as some of the people on this thread. As for sloth, he's stong, fast, and big.
I didnt attack his skill level. I commented about his lack of INTENTION in his strikes to you. You talk about how competition is the way to go, buy this guy doesnt look very intent to actually make contact.
I prefer training with people who are bigger and strong than me, its much more more difficult to throw them around!!!
I agree.
So if you think I'm a newbie by that video state it!
I never said you were a newbie. For the record, I didnt see anything special in the vid's.
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bobsmith
Starting Member
2 Posts |
Posted - 08/04/2002 : 19:44:30
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Hi, I am a newbie, just got my green. I also saw the video and I would say that you move pretty good, i move like that other guy. I would guess your a 2nd or 3rd black comparing to the bb's in my class, what rank are you? I like that one where you switch to the other wrist for the wrist lock.
So joe, you have my attention. I read your arguement (or whatever you want to call it) and i kinda agree. My instructor told me he does not do randori or competiton in class because hatsumi said 'no' to that. I still dont see the point really to randori, if i memorize the waza and kihon happo then i will someday move like you right?! if one waza does not work i switch to another like in tkd, so all you get from randori is to do it at real speed.
bob
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ninjitsu taught effectively?
