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javanate
Starting Member
3 Posts |
 Posted - 04/20/2003 : 11:28:04
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Hello,
I've been working on Taijutsu for a little over a year now and I have run across a problem. When I was little and reading Stephen Hayes and Hatsumi's books I got an impression of ninjutsu as a peaceful art. That is to say, the practitioners truly sought only to live a life of peace, and ninjutsu was an expression of that desire. Hatsumi said he'd rather be known as a painter.
Then I read a book by Jack Hoban. Hoban talked about living and thinking as a warrior and frequently referred to the fact he was a marine and other warrior talk. He seemed to be in a constant state of battle. I dimissed Hoban as somebody who misunderstood the art.
However, nowadays Hoban is looked to as one of the leading practitioners and Hayes is dismissed as "flaky." Recently a Nidan in our class circulated an email talking about a French soldier who was upset with an American Marine because we were starting a war wit Iraq. The Marine's clever response was we are always bailing out France and if he doesnt like it the Marine would be glad to kick his ass to prove his point that Americans were tougher. Now this was sent as though I would agree with those sentiments. I responded saying it reminded me of the stories of Chang Tzu where some tough guy would always be trying to prove himself and harrassing the peaceful villagers.
Looking around the net I see so much of ninjutsu talking about military background and other such tings as though this enhances their ninjutsu. I have to ask what does the military have to do with ninjutsu other than some outdoor survival training and minor hand to hand training. Other than that it is rifles, tanks, mass formation fighting, high tech ops, etc.
In the end I am wondering is this an art of peace where the goal is to live and celebrate life, or is this an art of constant tension waiting for a fight? I don't want to join the NRA as everyone in my dojo has and I want to live and grow as a peaceful and gentle being.
I'm thinking of switching to Kung Fu, which seems to still have its deep philosophical roots.
This is my dilema. Thanks
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javanate
Starting Member
3 Posts |
Posted - 04/20/2003 : 11:32:16
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Am I just in a crummy dojo?
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studious_ninja
Frequent Member
Japan
127 Posts |
 Posted - 04/20/2003 : 22:38:46
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Although I see your point, I don't really see it as a dilemma. Of course, the ninja wanted to live in peace, however; they were ready to defend themselves and their peaceful lifestyle with some of the most devastating techniques around. Training in this art does not gaurantee you a peaceful lifestyle, but it does give you a self confidence that you can take care of yourself when you need to, and that is peace of mind. There are a lot of people with a military background taking up this art. Why do you think that is? Everyone does it for different reasons. A person with a military background is going to think differently about conflict than someone who has never seen battle. But wouldn't that military person want peace of mind when it comes to protecting himself. How can you live and celebrate life when you're not in a position to protect it? If your looking for 'deep philosophical roots' of ninjutsu go to the source. If you read Hatsumi's book you'll see that you can live a peaceful life as a warrior. You don't need a war around to live as a warrior the same as you don't need a fire around to live as a fireman. Good luck.
"You live for the fight cuz that's all that you got." - Bon Jovi |
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mog roith
Frequent Member
Canada
117 Posts |
Posted - 04/21/2003 : 07:51:06
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I consider myself a warrior, or at least someone training to become one. To me, however, a warrior does not necessarily mean someone who is violent. I certainly am capable of extreme violence, but so is anyone. I simply have training that shows me how to most efficiently apply that efforts, should I ever be in a position to need to.
I see ninjutsu as an essentially peaceful art. The reason Hatsumi includes proscriptions against criminals and those with mental illnesses from taking the art is because, central to our ethos, there is an assumption of control. Especially historically, ninja didn't wander around looking for a fight, they tried to avoid fights every chance they got. Theoretically, if you live a peaceful and happy life, and do nothing to harm anyone, then noone has any reason to do you harm. With that in mind, given human nature and random chance, if put in a situation where someone is threatening you, you can be comfortable knowing you did nothing to earn this violence, and so can act with the fullest degree of violence to end the unprovoked assault, from a moral perspective.
I live as a warrior, but my view of the word 'warrior' is a more Japanese view. The Samurai, the epitome of the 'warrior' ethic in Japan, also were required by custom to learn things such as poetry, calligraphy, and history, things most Western 'warriors', like your typical Marine, would most likely scoff at. The focus in Japan was a fully rounded lifestyle that was complete in and of itself, as well as able to defend itself and others if need be. The ability to do violence was not one that necessarily meant seeking to do violence, or even seeing the world as a battleground, but merely possessing the ability to do so when called upon.
Part of ninjutsu IS realizing that a fight can erupt in any situation, or even being aware of things such as happened last year in Washington DC with the sniper. Being aware of the possibility simply means being prepared, however, so if a sniper opens fire, you are one of the ones who dives for cover immediately, rather than sitting stunned for a few seconds trying to figure out what to do. It means, if someone tries to mug you and gets too close, you can take them out rather than let them get away to hurt someone else. It means if someone attacks you, you can deal with him violently and then walk away. It has more to do with confidence and awareness than combat-readiness, but it's a narrow line to walk, and unfortunately some veer over to the 'the world is a constant battleground' viewpoint.
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Guardian Wraith
Regular Member
USA
70 Posts |
Posted - 04/21/2003 : 10:24:41
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javanate,
I must say that you make an excellent point in a very eloquent way. Well said. Most do not compare these things because their motives for training filter these deeper purposes.
I have much respect for Jack Hoban as well as Stephen Hayes. Popularity however is relative to what's fashionable for the times. Don't forget, Hayes pretty much dominated the '80s. And now that his pursuits are leading him on to his own discoveries, he can tend to be seen as some goofy old man now. But does popularity mean anything to him at all? Of course not! But make no misteak, "old" or not, just recall anyone so foolish as to assume Soke Hatsumi was "just some old man" and test him!
Mr. Hoban fit's the public's desired image of an "American Ninja" - More of the action hero image. This is not Jack's intent of course, just ask him. It's just the image people want to see.
You have a very precise idea of Ninpo/Ninjutsu in my mind.
Sure people will chase the military image into Ninjutsu practice, but if you stick with it, you will see that the art's teaching is so sound, that over the years it will shake out all but the most sincere.
Sensei like to really get to know ya. Just stick with it, you'll find that desired 'treasure' you seek. I guarantee it!
By the insight you show in your post, I can see that you clearly understand the art and are simply frustrated, and asked that question at the end as more of a challenge to the issue to be resolved rather than out of sincere un-knowing. So what good does it do to make that effort here in that way? Look at your life's most frustrating areas. Could you have had better success putting that effort in another area? How about your Sensei? Did you bring this up with them? If you did and this is still how you feel, maybe it's your instincts, and you should trust them! Perhaps you do need a class change. Change your art if you wish, but you and I both know that you truly know what Ninjutsu really is about.
This is a way of living, not an "Either/Or" scenario! Ninpo has permeated every aspect of my life. Man of peace? yes. Warrior? Yes. But what about Artist, Craftsman, philosopher, historian, father(or mother for a woman), teacher, friend, healer, Spiritualist, naturalist, herbalist, gardener and so on endlessly. Look to the CIA and NSA if you want strategests (poor compared to Ninja), and spies. And I'm sure that's not your purpose for this anyway.
If you insist on the "or" perspective, I guess I can say that I -(without discounting the above list)- prefer to be a Warrior tending a garden (Bonsai) rather than a gardener caught in a War.
And by Warrior, I too dont mean in the conventional sense, but also severely reject Samurai Standards and ethics. In no way were Ninja ever "black-clad Samurai" No true Ninja would ever throw their life away for petty pride and matters of face and Giri/ "honor".
But the scholarly practices required of samurai I do concur with, but just as long as it is done of the utmost of open minds.
In any case, change your art if you wish. But, just keep going, no matter where you find your path.
Take care.
Wraith
"After the Tenthousandth
triumph,
Yet a beginner.
Onward to what has ever
eluded me."
Edited by - Guardian Wraith on 04/22/2003 10:18:30 |
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mog roith
Frequent Member
Canada
117 Posts |
Posted - 04/21/2003 : 11:59:56
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Thank you, Guardian Wraith, for saying much more clearly what I was trying to say. I got too obssessed with the either/or scenario as well in answering his post, and never managed to get as far down the path you took as I should have. Your statement that you'd "rather be a Warrior tending a garden than a gardener stuck in a war" perfectly summed up what I was trying to get across. Thanks again.
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Guardian Wraith
Regular Member
USA
70 Posts |
Posted - 04/22/2003 : 10:31:53
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mog roith
Thank you for the praise.
Though I wouldn't go so far as to say "obsessed", maybe 'distracted.
"..never managed to get as far down the path you took as I should have."
Don't sell your self short! What's stopping you? Trust me, I've got plenty more to learn! Afterall I learned something from you in the "Stealth" string. I wont forget your insights there.
Everyone and everything has something to teach.
Have a good one!
Wraith
"After the Tenthousandth
triumph,
Yet a beginner.
Onward to what has ever
eluded me."
Edited by - Guardian Wraith on 04/22/2003 10:59:43 |
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mog roith
Frequent Member
Canada
117 Posts |
Posted - 04/22/2003 : 12:41:28
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Heh, the 'path' I was referring to was answering the guy's question and explaining what I was trying to blurt out. I did ok, you said it much better. My more general path is still a work in progress, and I try as much as possible to learn what I can and pass on what little help I may along the way :)
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dirithtai
Regular Member
USA
93 Posts |
Posted - 04/22/2003 : 13:58:04
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Javante-
I think that the problem you're running into stems more from the people you've ended up training with than the art itself. Hatsumi's view of the Bujinkan IS the bujinkan, anything anyone else says contrary to what he says is not. Thus, yes, this is an art for peaceul people.
I think there has to be a distinction between a peaceful art and an art for the peaceful. No martial art can be said to be peaceful, with the possible exception of Aikido. Even Tai Chi, when applied at speed and with combat intent, is a brutally devastating style. Ours is an art for peaceful people precisely because it is so incredibly violent. I've had the fortune to train with a number of very skilled doctors/nurses/physical therapists who can explain in great length exactly waht damage each technique can do to the human body, and some of it is frankly sickening. The extremely violent nature of what we learn MUST be mitigated by a peaceful, almost pacifistic attitude. (which is why, as someone mentioned, Hatsumi prohibits criminals from training.)
The groups I train with are all very peaceful people, and we look on it much the way Gaurdian Wraith was saying.
For myself, I'm learning this art to keep myself and the people I care about safe. If that involves hurting another person severely, that's not my problem, as they chose to start a fight thy couldn't win.
Our head student says it best, I think:
"At the end of the day, all I want is to get home and kiss my wife. Bujinkan is my way of making sure I get there in one piece."
If I may rant a moment, that email about the marine and the frenchman is a perfect illustration of the flawed concept of "warrior" that the western world has. I've noticed that attitude in all of the boys from the local ROTC that have come to train with us, none for more than a few classes before leaving. They had the same problem that marine in the story had, an obsessive need to PROVE they were tough by beating those weaker than them. A true warrior, in my opinion, has nothing to prove to anyone (except possibly to himself).
I'm sorry to hear of a fellow ninja thinking of quitting the art, but it is just the people you work with, not the bujinkan in general, as far as I can tell.
It'd be a loss to our art if you leave, since you seem the kind of guy hatsumi has in mind as a good student, but good luck on whatever path you choose.
"May peace favor your sword"
"In emptiness there is good but no evil. Wisdom exists, logic exists, the Way exists, but the mind is empty."
--Musashi
Tim
Hidden Mountain Bujinkan Shibu of VA |
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Guardian Wraith
Regular Member
USA
70 Posts |
Posted - 04/23/2003 : 10:24:53
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mog roith
Oops! My misteak.
I kinda wondered if I really had achieved all that much compared to anyone here.
I never wanted to look at this place like that anyway. I consider it another nice avenue to keep in touch with peers following the same basic Way.
Thanks, I think the "Warrior/Garden" remark embodies well the purpose if you think also the garden as metaphor for cultivating virtues in all other levels of life and loved ones, though I do love literally gardening and the Bonsai philosophy of endurance too.
dirithtai,
I couldn't agree with you more!
javanate, please stick around, I think you've 'got the right stuff'. If you've brought this up with your Sensei and you still feel this way, then you may very well have a poor Dojo. (I hope that isn't the case though, because good ones can be scarce for some locations).
Now I'd like to rant, if anyone want's to humor me.
A word on violence-
I'm sure we've all heard by now the potential deadliness of Taijutsu techniques. So this is my perspective on combat/violence -I HATE it. Bottom line, it comes down to destruction, destruction eventually leads to death if you see it to it's conclusion. I don't know if any of you have ever killed someone, and I dont want to know. I've never killed anyone, and hope never to have to. Although I DO know how it feels to kill. Put into a situation where I needed to learn to survive, I had to hunt in a manner that is lost to so-called "Hunters" today. (at 14 years old) I tracked and selected a handicapped deer that wouldn't make it to the end of the season. At times I felt his every emotion in the subtle weight shifts in his tracks. My empathy grew into a brotherly respect as I memorized his daily patterns. Having nothing but a sharpened stick, his initial wound was not instantly fatal, so I choked him. As my adrenaline slowed, I caught the sheer horror and terror in his eyes, his pain was my pain. And in the last few seconds of his life he relaxed as I held him, and a look of acceptance was apparent in him. There was a mysterious knowing there that I needed him. Then he died.
Needless to say I felt horrible, like a murderer, complete and total shame. I hadn't eaten in many days and almost couldn't bring myself to continue on with the process to survive.
This may make you hate me for the act, but that respect is completely lost on "Hunters" who kill for "sport" from a long distance with an elaborate weapon doing the work for them.
I have that respect for all things, and hate destruction.
Man of peace... You bet!
Have a good one.
Wraith
"After the Tenthousandth
triumph,
Yet a beginner.
Onward to what has ever
eluded me." |
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mog roith
Frequent Member
Canada
117 Posts |
Posted - 04/23/2003 : 20:11:26
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Thanks for your openness Guardian, means a lot.
I personally feel the same way. One thing I have learned in my training is, that given the degree of violence inherent in what we do, you never EVER want to do it. I would really hate to get in a fight, but I am always prepared in case one comes up. It's been about 13 years since I was last in a fight, and that would have made me 12. The few times I've gotten close, I've managed to avoid the fight through some psychological tricks, like recognizing the giant guy bumping into me is trying to impress his girlfriend and so telling him to piss off and turning my back (making him choose between attacking a smaller guy from behind, or leaving, and leaving having less of an embarassment factor). What the Bujinkan gives me is the confidence to be who I am, and not worry overly about others doing violence to me, like mugging or carjacking me. If I were thrown into that kind of situation, the levels of violence I've been trained in are probably much higher than what the poor bastard threatening me is, and given the chance I'll take him out.
I see no reason to hate you for anything, your actions with the deer were honourable. You needed food, and found it. Given the need to take another creature's life, you showed it the respect it deserved by treating it like something worthy of sorrow and regret. Anyone who hunts deer for 'sport' with a rifle needs help, I fail to see the sport involved in hunting a defenseless animal with a weapon that allows you to strike from extreme range. It's like finding pleasure in throwing bricks at a guy with his arms tied behind his back. 'Sport' hunting, to me, would be taking down bear with bow and arrow or spear. That's a challenge, and if the first hit isn't a kill (which is very likely) you've got to be skilled enough to avoid the very dangerous pissed off bear. This at least gives the animal a chance, and requires skill on the part of the hunter.
While I haven't been required to hunt for food, I have done a bit of tracking and such in case I'd ever need to, trying to get as close to a deer as possible, etc. Managed to sneak right up on my cat once, scared the bejeebers out of him when I touched him :)
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Guardian Wraith
Regular Member
USA
70 Posts |
Posted - 04/24/2003 : 10:03:55
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mog roith,
I agree, though even before I ever began training in Ninjutsu, even when I was pretty young, I always strived to develop the ability to predict situations long before they came to pass, (I just Knew I could), by studying the little nuances in everyone's character and adjusting my actions accordingly, and so I subtly influenced the outcome, so more often than not, I saw a fight comming long before the "players" were "on stage", and subsequently avoided it.
I was fortunate enough to very rarely have had the need to fight.
That deer thing happened during the late eighties where there was a lot more forest here for a spiteful kid (who was angry with his dad) could stubbornly wander himself into a formidable situation of being lost. And given my nature training from an early age, I planned to hide there indefinately, I felt invincible.
Nothing like nature survival to tame the ego! I wasn't a fighter, but just about as dumb as one. A badly needed lesson.
Dirty, and broken, I wandered a few miles to where my father was hastily tracking me and saw him waiting for me on the other end of a large clearing. That was the longest walk in my life, worried what he'd say or do. I got to him and finally looked him in the eye and all he did was lift his eyebrows and quietly say, "Not so young anymore?"
What could I say... I needed it.
Tracking is a big thing to my family, and it's knowledge has the added benefit of being sensitive enough to one's own presence (or lack of) and influence, enabling one to elude most average tracking attempts. Though as you know I had difficulty with bloodhounds, (we'll see this next month! HaHa! )
The 'bear and bow' bit I've heard before, it's a good one, it makes sense to even the most thick-headed people since it's basically illustrated in crayon!
Touching wild animals is a beautiful experience, especially when it is they who touch you! Beyond words, it's like nature's loving embrace.
But it can get interesting though!
I use Deer for the stealth skills, and occasionally Fox, but those little stinkers hear so well that you'd better 'ride the wind' if you know what I mean, I swear one heard my heart beating and took alarm to me for it! And their sense of smell rivals that of the Bloodhound!
Cats are much like Rabbits, while they look pretty comical as they startle, don't use them for the 'stalk-n-touch' they can claw the hell out of you and not even know it. I did it to a male Rabbit in rut, and the damn thing tried to fight me and chased me! And don't get bit by one either! And don't get me going on Squirrels!
Deer are pretty good because they're stealthy and very sensitive to their surroundings, large enough, and their fur is coarse enough to where they wont feel you're light touch as they go by. Good to develop a soft touch, then move on to other- more sensitive animals. BUT BE CAREFUL!!!! And if you find a Badger or any of it's cousins... LEAVE THEM ALONE unless you need to eat them. Vicious!!
And in the off chance you may piss off a Buck, get (and keep) a tree between the two of you, they can gore a man to death in a matter of minutes!
Sheesh! Encouraging huh?
Well...
Have fun!
Wraith
"After the Tenthousandth
triumph,
Yet a beginner.
Onward to what has ever
eluded me."
Edited by - Guardian Wraith on 04/24/2003 10:21:58 |
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gaijin
Regular Member
Japan
17 Posts |
Posted - 05/03/2003 : 07:05:07
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Hello all,
All these messages are good and it is good to see everyone trying to understand what they are doing. But the the main thing that Hatsumi-sensei is teaching is combat. And there is nothing peaceful in it. In combat it is your life or someone elses. That is why so many military personnel equate it to themselves. At the dojo Sensei says this is real and this will kill the other person, that is why we are training. Not to be a new kind of hippie. Remember Takamatsu-sensei killed over 200 people in his life-time according to Hatsumi-sensei.
That is why Sensei has the rules of no one with a criminal record, or drug use, or mentally unsound. Because lives are at stake.
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mog roith
Frequent Member
Canada
117 Posts |
Posted - 05/04/2003 : 16:53:10
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Gaijin, noone here arguing that ninjutsu is a 'peaceful' art would doubt that it is inherently a violent combat system based upon killing your opponent as efficiently as possible. The 'peaceful' component comes from the non-combat aspects, the mental training, the stealth training, etc. All these are designed to avoid combat. Even the combat itself is designed not to uphold any ideals like honour or mercy, but merely to make the fight as short and safe for yourself as possible. The core philosophy passed along within my dojo from Hatsumi is that we learn to live a good life, so that anyone who threatens that life must be in the wrong to do so, and therefore we can react with complete violence to their transgression. This is a 'peaceful' art because we don't try to fight, but if forced we do so with brutal efficiency, having no reason to hold back. Our main goal is not to fight, not even to win every fight, but to survive, and the most efficient way to never lose a fight is to never get into one to begin with.
Yes, very high-ranked individuals get into severe situations, sometimes on purpose. They have reasons which I don't fully understand, which I'm sure will become clearer as I progress in the art. Many of the stories I have read of Takamatsu getting into fights were in situations where he was protecting someone else, however. He didn't pick fights solely to fight, he had reasons.
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gaijin
Regular Member
Japan
17 Posts |
Posted - 05/05/2003 : 07:19:04
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Actually Takamatsu-sensei did "pick" quite a few fights for nothing other then to test his ability. He took all comers when he lived in China. And he would often go and challenge other martial artists.
And my response was to the fact that many people's responses talk about Ninjutsu as a peaceful art and that is just not so. And historically the Ninja were spies and mercenaries not just your average farmer looking to take care or himself, now not all of them were but quite a few were. That is why it was outlawed.
But as to your mental training and what not that is fine but that is not what Hatsumi-sensei teaches, and he will tell you that. I have never practiced any kind of mental training in the dojo here. Sensei says "That if you want that kind of training then go and find a teacher in that, I teach budo taijutsu."
I am not saying that it is not good to do different kinds of mental training or Zen or what ever works for you. All I am saying is that Sensei teaches combat as was taught to him. This is where many people go wrong, and I have seen Sensei shut down many people who try to teach or talk about mental and spiritual matters with what Sensei is teaching. Now Sensei does talk about leading the right kind of life and living as a martial artist. But he has never taught what the is exactly, instead he say to make Budo a part of your life and if you train and practice with the right kind of heart then everything will take care of itself.
I hope I am not coming on to strong, if so I am sorry. I am only repeating what Sensei has told me.
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Guardian Wraith
Regular Member
USA
70 Posts |
Posted - 05/05/2003 : 11:05:56
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gaijin,
"A violent man will die a violent death. This shall be the essence of my teaching."
-Lao Tzu
Ninja were not militants.
Combat? Why? Have you ever wondered that?
Forgive my tone here please. It just seems to me that you are a bit inexperienced. I also have my doubts about your Sensei too.
By any chance have you "shopped around" before you took a class?
Do you know anything about Hatsumi-Sensei as an extrordinary healer, friend, therapist, philosopher?
He makes Reiki look like a bandaid!
How many years have you been training?
< It takes about ten to get to see the good stuff! >
Who is your Sensei by the way?
Believe me, no one gets anywhere in this Art with a Brawler mentality.
Honing skill is one thing, but being dumb enough to subject yourself unnecessarily to constant life or death bouts is B.S. Not Hatsumi, or Takamatsu, or Hayes, or Hoban etc. EVER did or teach anything near that!!!!
If you prefer combat so much, why don't you join Ashida Kim's bunch.
Ok, that seemed a bit harsh. Sorry about that. But my points still stand.
I have no desire to bicker here, so if it heads that way I'm gonna ignore this one from now on.
Wraith
"After the Tenthousandth
triumph,
Yet a beginner.
Onward to what has ever
eluded me." |
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Philosophical Guidance
